36 | Talk with Your Kids About Pornography // with Marcie & Alex Calder
The average person is exposed to pornography at 11 years old (and often younger). Talking to your kids about pornography can feel intimidating, but Marcie and Alex Calder provide a wealth of knowledge in this episode making it feel much less scary. Alex is finishing up his PhD in counseling psychology, Marcie is a school psychologist, and they are also parents of young kids. Tune in to learn specific ways to talk to your kids about pornography at every age (starting from when they're a baby!), why you should focus on helping your children develop a healthy view of sexuality (and not just how to avoid pornography), and how your own experiences play an important role in helping your children.
Helpful Links:
Good Pictures Bad Pictures Jr (for ages 3-7)
Transcript
The average age that someone first
sees pornography is 11 years old.
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:And that's just the average.
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:So it often can be much earlier than this.
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:And that's why I feel like it's
so important to have a podcast
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:episode all about how to talk
with our kids about pornography.
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:In ways that will actually help them.
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:And I don't feel qualified to talk about
this on my own, which is why I'm so
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:excited that I have Alex and Marcy Calder.
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:As guests to come talk about this topic,,
that can be really tricky about how to
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:talk with our kids about pornography.
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:. Alex is finishing his PhD
in counseling psychology.
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:And Marcy is a school psychologist.
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:And together they host a podcast
called chat with your kids.
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:All about.
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:Talking with your kids
about tricky subjects?
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:Which is why I'm so grateful that
they would come to share their
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:wisdom and insights on how to talk
with our kids about pornography
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:when it's such a prevalent thing.
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:.
Do you ever find yourself turning to your phone without even thinking about it?
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:Or do you get sucked into
scrolling and regret not using
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:that time for something else?
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:You are not alone.
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:I'm Alex, a Screen Time Mentor for
Young Moms, and I'm here to help you
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:get a grip on your own screen time
so you can be present, intentional,
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:and live a more fulfilling life.
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:Welcome to the Mindful With Media Podcast.
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:Welcome.
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:I'm so grateful that you would come
and be a guest on my podcast today.
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:So will you go ahead and introduce
yourself a little bit and Alex.
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:Yeah, for sure.
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:So I'm Marcy and Alex
will be joining us soon.
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:He is putting little babies to bed right
now, but he's so excited to come and
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:join us for this conversation so we host
a podcast called chat with your kids
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:podcast and it's really, just about
having important, but maybe sometimes
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:difficult conversations with kids and,
a little bit about our backgrounds.
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:I'm a school psychologist and
Alex is just wrapping up his
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:PhD in counseling psychology.
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:So we have a lot of like psychology
conversations in our home and
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:especially once we started having kids.
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:Between like clients and doing family
therapy and seeing these big difficult
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:topics come up, , with the families and
individuals that we were working with,
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:we just felt like, wow, this is scary.
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:And we really want to get
it right with our kids.
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:And we also, we were just talking about
it so much that we're like, I don't think
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:we're the only ones with these questions.
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:And so it's kind of a passion of ours
and we love having these conversations
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:with other parents and that's.
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:Yeah, that's a little
bit about who we are.
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:Thank you so much.
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:I'm so grateful.
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:I think this topic of pornography and
talking with our kids about pornography
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:is something that I would like to not
be afraid of, but I think I am kind of
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:scared if I'm really honest with myself.
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:So I'm really grateful that you
would come and teach me and teach
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:my Mindful with media community more
about how we can do this, so I kind
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:of just want to start out with that.
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:Big question of, how can parents talk
with their kids about pornography in
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:a way that will actually be helpful?
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:Yeah.
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:I love this question and I, I think if
you're listening today, I think it's
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:just awesome that you are thinking about
this and wondering because this is,
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:whether we like it or not, any kid who.
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:Not even has access to media because
any kid who's has access to other
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:kids who have access to media is
likely going to encounter pornography.
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:And so, , as parents, it's so important
that we are thinking about how we
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:can intentionally prepare them and
talk to them about addressing this.
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:I think I even want to believe
like my kid would be the exception
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:or like, not my family, right?
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:But, that's just not the case.
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:And so I think that's a great question.
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:And.
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:Yeah.
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:It actually works so well framing
it in what we call kind of like
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:the chat with your kids model,
which is Connect, Listen, Chat.
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:And there's kind of three parts to this
model and I'll briefly kind of mention
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:them and then we can dig in on like how
this would really apply to pornography.
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:But Connect really is like that
first part is that having these
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:difficult conversations with our
kids has to happen in the context
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:of like a trusting relationship.
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:Because no matter what age your
kid, especially if they are in
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:their teens or like just that
prepubescent age, they're going to feel
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:uncomfortable or maybe embarrassed.
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:There may be feelings of shame
related to this conversation.
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:And so having A relationship
is so important.
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:And then the second part is listen.
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:And really, it's so important that
we're letting our kids guide these
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:we are letting their questions
kind of dictate where things go.
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:We're asking them their opinions, and
we're letting them do a lot of the talking
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:because that is Like when when you're
talking and creating something yourself,
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:that is where true learning takes place.
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:So we want to think of good
questions and really involve them.
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:We don't want to just sit
them down and lecture them.
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:And then the last part is chat.
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:And I think this is so important
with like Especially with the topic
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:of pornography is that it's not one
like the talk conversation, right?
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:That's kind of outdated like I think
that's kind of what a lot of us got with
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:these big topics if we got something at
all but just like technology advances.
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:So does parenting technology and now
we know it's like better and healthier
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:for kids that we sprinkle it like a
little here a little there in like
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:small Little bits at a time, and it can
be formal, informal you know, a lot of
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:times like a more casual conversation.
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:And so with pornography, this conversation
can be, you know, it's not too late if
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:your kids are teens, like it's never
too late to start these conversations.
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:But if you have kids in diapers, you can
actually start these conversations just
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:at an age appropriate, developmentally
appropriate level, just kind of
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:meeting them where they're at and just
like one little principle at a time.
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:That's really powerful.
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:I think especially because I am the
mom that my kids are still in diapers.
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:And so I think it's, it's easy for me
to hear about pornography and think,
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:okay, how am I going to prepare to talk
to my kids about that when they're 12?
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:But it's like, no, I can actually
start this right now when my oldest
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:is two, like the time is now.
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:So I really, I love that.
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:For me.
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:Yeah.
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:I'd love to kind of dive deeper
into each of these parts of
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:the chat with your kids model.
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:So can you remind me again
what those three parts were?
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:Yeah, for sure.
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:Connect, listen, and chat.
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:Okay.
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:Connect, listen, and chat.
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:And something that really stood out
to me as you were talking about the
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:connect piece and about there can be
shame around this topic of pornography.
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:That's something that I, I guess kind
of, yeah, just kind of sharing my
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:experience of growing up and always
hearing about like, pornography
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:is bad, pornography is bad.
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:That was very, very, very clear to me.
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:But what I didn't understand was when
I started meeting people and getting
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:close to people who were struggling
with pornography, it was like, wait,
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:these are good people and pornography
is bad and it kind of rocked my world.
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:Like, Something's missing here.
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:I kind of felt like there was something
missing between the good people struggling
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:with pornography, and I think it's
because there was so much shame that they
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:didn't know where to go for help, and
it was actually just exacerbating the
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:problem because of the shame around it.
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:So I think that really stood
out to me about, The power of
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:connecting to help with that shame.
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:Yeah, and I think that's so important and
I love that you kind of highlighted that
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:because it is a topic that can come with
a lot of shame and I think especially I
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:think well intentioned parents right are
like scared right and so you want to say
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:like that's bad stay away from it because
we know like there's a lot of research
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:like pornography is bad for children like
it is not developmentally appropriate for
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:children to have access to pornography.
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:And it's, it's unhealthy, right?
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:But, if that's all we say is like,
that's bad, that's bad, and we
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:kind of use, like, scare tactics,
and that sometimes just comes from
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:our own, , fear as parents, right?
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:Then, yeah, just like you're saying,
I was totally in the same boat, right?
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:I connected, like, it's bad, and if
you are part of this, you're bad, when
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:actually, so many kids are exposed to
it, and so that's really hard for a kid.
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:Who maybe is exposed to it and they
have all these questions and there's
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:feelings and maybe they were really
curious and it was interesting and they're
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:like, I cannot tell my parents, right?
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:Like, I think it's such a topic that
is kept secret because there is the
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:language that we've used around it
historically has been pretty shame based.
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:And it is really interesting.
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:Also, Alex is joining us, everyone.
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:Welcome, Alex.
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:Thank you.
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:But I and I think it's also important
to remember that, different adults have
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:different values around pornography.
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:So some families have the value
that, you know, it's just something
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:that you should never consume or
never have a part of your life.
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:And other families may say there, there
will be a time and a place where this is
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:appropriate to have a part of your life.
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:And so I think it's okay to
acknowledge that every family
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:has different values around it.
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:But one value that should be held
pretty common is that it's not
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:developmentally appropriate for children.
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:And it can be very harmful for children.
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:So, what would you say to do instead?
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:So, like, how do you connect or maybe
it's a different part of the model
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:so that there isn't so much shame
around this topic so that you can
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:actually chat with your kids about it?
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:Mm hmm.
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:I think that actually that does move
really well into, , the listen part.
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:And I think some of it is just, like,
kind of validating the feelings that
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:kids may have, like curiosity, right?
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:So, as you're having these conversations
earlier on and , that might be just
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:like acknowledging or validating that
there may be a level of curiosity
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:and even just, you know, as kids get
older, you can take away the shame
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:and like things like arousal, right?
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:That's normal.
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:That's part of your body.
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:You can use some science, right?
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:So taking away the shame around it,
but just using like very informative
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:language about like, if somebody
showed you this, you may be curious,
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:you may be interested in it, and that
doesn't make you a bad person, but.
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:And you can talk about kind
of like, we shouldn't look at
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:pictures of people's private parts.
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:And you can kind of go back to some
of those earlier foundational lessons.
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:About, like, body safety, about
keeping private parts private, that
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:we shouldn't look at other people's
private parts, we shouldn't let other
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:people look at our private parts.
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:Like, some of those earlier
lessons of, , consent, right?
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:That, we shouldn't look at somebody's
body parts that doesn't want us
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:to, like, that kind of stuff.
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:Yeah, to put like a technical term to this
that it's called decisional balancing.
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:So it's something that's used in actually
like something called motivational
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:interviewing, which is a, it's a
therapeutic intervention, which is
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:specifically used for like substance use
actually in a lot of cases, but it can
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:be used for a lot of different things.
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:And the idea is helping people
develop their own sense of like
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:the pros and cons of something.
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:And so this is like an age
appropriate way to help.
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:A child start to connect their like
way out things in their mind in the way
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:that they're able to based on the values
that you want to instill in your child.
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:I think that's so powerful.
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:And I love that.
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:Like it kind of teaches the
why behind all of it, right?
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:Like, why is pornography bad,
you know, for these reasons.
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:And like you said, like being aroused and
having arousal is like a normal, natural
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:thing and actually a really healthy thing.
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:Like you are designed to be a sexual
being, like we are sexual people
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:and that's, that's a good thing.
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:And this is how to manage those sexual
feelings and manage that arousal,
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:I guess, like in appropriate ways.
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:Yeah.
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:, and we can maybe get into this a little
more of each age, what it will look
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:like at each age, but I think it's really
important and I think it's really helpful
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:for kids to help them, you really
need to like scaffold and hold their
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:hand and like kind of let them know.
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:So like, yeah, first
Normalize it, right?
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:Like, it's likely that they will happen.
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:We have some statistics that, like
94 percent of children have seen
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:some form of pornography by age 14,
and the average first exposure to
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:pornography is between ages 8 and 11.
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:Alex told me tonight, like, Yeah,
for, well, I mean, I was at a
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:friend's house when I was, like, 7.
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:He was actually younger than me,
too, which is kind of wild, but.
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:He had printed off some pictures of women
and he was just casually, we were at his
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:house just like playing games or whatever.
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:And he's like, Hey, check this out.
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:And it was like totally unexpected
and caught me off guard.
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:And I had never seen
anything like that before.
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:So and you were seven when that happened?
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:Yeah.
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:, yeah, and the kid does, and that's before
the day and age of the smartphone, right?
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:That was printed off, like, printed with
like cartridges from a printer, you know?
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:So kids have access to
tablets at such a young age.
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:And so really like spelling it out,
like letting them know, kind of like.
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:This might happen in a situation
like , maybe you're at school and some
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:kids say, Hey, look at this and they
show you their phone and you know,
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:it might have picture of people and
they don't have their clothes on.
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:And you can even just normalize like
you might say like, you might have some
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:responses or feelings you might be.
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:scared, you might be curious,
you might be, you know, you might
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:have whatever feeling, right?
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:And then you might even use that to
like, ask that question to listen,
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:say, what do you think you would feel?
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:Or maybe even say, has
this happened to you?
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:Or you know what I mean?
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:So like, listen, right?
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:But kind of spell it out.
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:Then talk about, situations
and then really like you were
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:saying, a game plan of like,
you're not going to get in trouble.
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:Like , that's why we're
talking about this.
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:I want to hear about it.
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:Cause that sounds like a big
situation for a kid to handle.
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:, maybe even if you are somebody like
Alex, you could say when I was seven,
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:something like that happened to me.
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:And I felt.
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:Confused.
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:And I didn't know what to do about it.
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:I didn't know if I should tell it
felt kind of yucky and I didn't want
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:to get in trouble for my parents.
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:So you can kind of spell it
out and then make a game plan.
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:So if that does happen, you
know, you can say, No, thanks.
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:I don't think I'm
supposed to be doing this.
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:Or you could say, What do you think?
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:I don't know.
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:Like, is that cool?
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:What would what would
you say to your friends?
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:Like, how would you say this?
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:Right?
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:So you can again, get
them chatting about it.
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:And then make a game plan
like Who would you tell?
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:You can always tell me.
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:If I wasn't available,
who else could you tell?
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:So kind of like, I think a lot of times
with kids, like, you just kind of have
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:to break it down for them and, spell
it out, but then, also give them a lot
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:of, ownership in talking about it, you
know, and coming up with your own ideas.
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:A question I have, I think as I chat
with you, chat with you, I you seem
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:really comfortable talking about this
and what advice would you give to
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:somebody who wants to talk with their
kids about this in a comfortable way
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:so that their child's comfortable, but
they themselves aren't comfortable yet?
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:So one thing I would say, well, I
don't know if you have anything to
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:say, but one thing I would say is
like, start with an adult, right?
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:So like, if you're married, talk
to your spouse about it and say
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:like, Hey, I'm so nervous about
talking to our kids about this.
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:Can we talk about it?
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:And maybe ask them, like, when
was the first time that you
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:were, you saw pornography?
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:Me and Alex, we had very different,
I was like in my 20s the first
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:time I encountered it, and I
like had a full on panic, right?
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:Alex was seven, right?
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:And so how, even that conversation brought
out so much of our own experience and
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:opinions, and again, it's just making
us more comfortable talking about
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:something that's like a little uncomfy.
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:And then you can even practice, like,
say, can I practice what I would say, or
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:you could do it with a friend as well.
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:Right.
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:And I think this is something
that we, as we've been like doing
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:this podcast and we've been, first
of all, don't let us fool you.
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:Like, we're still so nervous
to do this with our kids.
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:And every time we have a big conversation
with our kids, it's of course, its own
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:experience, but the more we bring up
these kinds of conversations with friends.
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:It's like we're all just dying to
talk about it, like, you know, like
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:it's, it is hard and it's scary, but
like, I think so many parents, it is
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:on our minds and, but it is, it's like
a little bit like, yeah, you're at
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:like dinner with friends and you're
like, Hey, like, have you ever thought
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:about talking to your kids about porn?
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:It feels like a weird
thing to bring up, but.
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:People love to talk about it.
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:Honestly.
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:Yeah.
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:I think kind of just say what you're
saying we always bring our own personal,
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:like history and experience into whatever
it is we're chatting with our kids about.
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:And sometimes there's certain things
that maybe have, they're more emotionally
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:laden and just pornography and sexually
related things tend to have shame or
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:other things associated with them.
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:So.
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:I guess what I'm trying to say is like,
we're never going to do it perfectly.
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:And when we're chatting with our
kids in some ways, we're kind of
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:learning on the fly as we're doing it.
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:And we should have like grace
and lumency for ourselves to
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:have the chat imperfectly, to
have the chats imperfectly.
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:And at the same time, it is
important for us to like figure out
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:how to work through these things
outside of the chat with our kids.
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:Which I think speaks to what you're
saying, like, that there's some maybe
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:personal self reflection or individual
work to sort out, like, what is it
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:exactly that I think about, pornography
in this case, and, how is it that I
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:want to talk to my kids about it, and,
like, what kind of values do I want
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:to instill, and what do I want the
interactions to look like, what's, anyway
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:I think there's a lot of a lot of our
own work that needs to be done, like,
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:kind of in parallel or in preparation
while at the same time being okay to
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:just be like a normal human and sometimes
flounder when we try to have the chat.
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:I think that's so healthy to have
that perspective and mindset about it.
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:And it kind of made me think like where
am I at on my own journey with that and
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:like, what do I want my kids to know?
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:And I think we kind of were talking about
this earlier, how, I don't want my kids
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:to just learn from me that pornography
is bad, but I want to teach them how
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:to have healthy sexuality, like, as a
As a whole, as a bigger picture, like
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:this is just one tiny little piece
of just don't do this, but like, no,
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:how do you have healthy sexuality?
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:Like as an individual, I don't know.
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:Yeah.
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:And I love that you framed it like that.
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:Like, I think that's such a healthy
mindset of, instead of saying like,
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:how can I just like, make sure my kids.
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:Don't look at pornography.
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:I'd love taking that step back and asking
that bigger picture of like, how can I
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:help my kids have a very healthy view of
sexuality and like what would that look
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:like, you know, and how can I support
them in that bigger picture because I
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:think then as you have that like bigger
goal, I think it will help you more
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:naturally and more comfortably engage
in those tough conversations, right?
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:Because it takes away a
little bit of pressure.
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:It's like, you don't have
to get it all right at once.
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:Like, it's going to be a little
bit at a time, like when they're
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:younger, when they're toddlers.
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:We can start by teaching them the
accurate names of their body parts, right?
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:That's a small thing But it's
like, you know, there's no
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:shame in your body, right?
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:This is your body part head shoulders
knees and toes and all the other parts.
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:We're gonna name them, right?
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:We can start teaching them body safety
just you know, small things like even
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:our two year old He knows that he
doesn't have to hug someone and he's
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:learning to make statements about,
like, what he's comfortable with and
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:what he's not comfortable with, right?
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:He'll even sometimes say,
like, I said a boundary.
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:Yeah, that is awesome.
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:Like, and even that like setting a
boundary right like that's a concept that
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:like our two year old is like starting to
grasp and his little two year old away.
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:It's a really powerful tool for when he's
seven, and some buddy wants to show him
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:some pornography on their phone right he
can say, I know how to set boundaries,
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:I feel a little weird about this right
so Those like foundational skills when
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:they're younger, we can start teaching
them healthy sexuality, a really important
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:part, and especially with pornography
is modeling healthy relationships and
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:teaching them about love and intimacy.
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:In a very healthy and like
whole way that pornography just
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:certainly does not do right.
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:Pornography is kind of a lie.
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:And so if we can start to teach that at
like a very young age and model that and
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:just help them have like a more whole view
of sexuality, then that can, yeah, it can
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:lead into those difficult conversations
and Alex mentioned this as well.
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:Like we bring our baggage to
these conversations with our kids.
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:Because we have this whole lifetime of
experience, and shame, and, you know,
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:all these lessons, and oh my gosh, like,
don't say the word porn, because we
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:know what it is, and all these things,
but if you're talking to your nine year
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:old, and they don't really have that
much context, or they've never heard
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:the word porn, like they're just a kid
who's learning something new from their
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:parents, like, you have your baggage,
and of course, kids might get a little,
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:like, Oh, mom, like, we don't need to
talk about private parts or whatever,
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:of course, like, they're gonna maybe
feel a little uncomfortable, but they
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:likely don't have that same experience
and baggage towards these difficult
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:topics as we do, you know, and so, if
we've been doing this and teaching them
400
:about, like, healthy sexuality from a
young age, It's just going to be like,
401
:Oh, this is the culture of our family.
402
:Okay.
403
:What is it that we're going to talk about?
404
:Probably not that easy, but
like, you know what I mean?
405
:It's just, yeah, it was more naturally.
406
:You've already shared some really
helpful examples of what it looks
407
:like to chat with your kids about
pornography at different ages.
408
:Like, I love the examples of,
you know, your two year old in
409
:the bathtub, just talking about
body parts or whatever it is.
410
:Can you go through?
411
:Kind of each stage and give some
examples of what this could look like.
412
:And I all acknowledged, I'm sure it
will look different for everyone, every
413
:family and every child and stuff, but
just what it could look like, do you
414
:mind going through and doing that?
415
:For sure.
416
:Yeah.
417
:So we kind of just talked a
little bit about like toddlers
418
:teaching their their body parts.
419
:And then a big thing is just like
body safety and we're really excited.
420
:We're like working on an episode
right now on just like body safety and
421
:like that because again like there's
about four million different Chats
422
:within , you know, this whole Subject
of pornography I'm looking forward to
423
:that one because I've gotten really
comfortable with like talking about
424
:names of body parts in normal ways
and like, we're really good at that.
425
:But I'm like, okay, now we've
swung too far where my son's like
426
:way too comfortable talking about
all the names of body parts.
427
:Okay.
428
:Like, okay, now where is appropriate?
429
:Where's not appropriate?
430
:The . Yeah, that would
be like the toddler age.
431
:Really focusing on like teaching them
like consent to advocate for themselves.
432
:Teaching them their private parts
as they get a little bit older.
433
:We're going to teach them like
our private parts or anything
434
:that's covered by a swimsuit.
435
:And you can again, name those parts
because you're already doing that.
436
:And then when we get to
like school age kids.
437
:So many kids by age eight have already
been exposed to this, so we want to,
438
:before age eight for Alex, before
age seven, right, introduce just
439
:briefly, like, the, the concept of
pornography in an age appropriate way.
440
:So we can teach them the word pornography
and let them know what this is.
441
:And we can just teach them, you know,
it's pictures or videos or images.
442
:of, you know, people who don't have their
clothes on and they're, you know, you can
443
:kind of like, it shows private parts and
we can talk a little bit about like, maybe
444
:how they might feel when they see that.
445
:kiDs might have questions again.
446
:Let them lead.
447
:Like there's a million
different questions.
448
:Their questions might be like,
can we stop talking about this?
449
:Ew, I'm so uncomfortable.
450
:And we can ask like, why?
451
:Right.
452
:Or their questions might be like, why?
453
:Like, why would that exist?
454
:Why would anyone do that?
455
:Right.
456
:So you want to make sure you're
like leaving them space to ask
457
:questions and a really good book.
458
:Sometimes I love books, like kind of
going back earlier with your question
459
:of like, if you're feeling nervous.
460
:Use a book like a book helps so
much and a really good book is
461
:called good pictures, bad pictures.
462
:And I forgot to write the name
of the author, but and I can
463
:put it in the show notes too.
464
:I'll link it in the show notes.
465
:But that is like one example and I'm sure
there are other great books out there.
466
:There's so many like resources,
which is like such a a good thing.
467
:But that book just kind
of goes through it.
468
:It defines what pornography is and
then it kind of just, again, like, we
469
:want to destigmatize, like, the shame,
like, we just want to normalize, like,
470
:you may have some curiosity, these are
the feelings you might have, and then
471
:we want to talk about a game plan.
472
:So what to do if we encounter
pornography is there anything else
473
:you would say about, like, school age?
474
:I think definitely.
475
:Like practicing or role playing
situations can become really effective.
476
:And something I'd say, maybe going
back to the question of shame, is
477
:that something developmentally that's
important to consider is a couple things.
478
:One is that young kids, like toddlers and
like preschool age kids, they're Minds are
479
:basically set up to see things in black
and white or like either, or good and bad.
480
:So in terms of avoiding shame or like
how to teach these things, like it's
481
:kind of useful to teach in the good
and bad frame, actually, just because
482
:that's what they'll understand with the
knowledge, the understanding that like,
483
:we'll have to continue, like, that's
why you chat with your kids, right?
484
:Like we'll have to continue the
conversation as they continue to grow
485
:and develop so that they don't just.
486
:only have that good or bad either
or view of like pornography
487
:or really anything else.
488
:And the second thing is that there's
quite a bit of research, developmental
489
:research that suggests that by
the age of six children have, like
490
:the rudiments of moral reasoning.
491
:So , like,, they're pretty capable
to make moral judgments, not very
492
:sophisticated ones, but they have all
the basic components that they'll need
493
:to make all the other sophisticated moral
judgments later on, which is pretty cool.
494
:And I think for me that kind of
instills confidence that like
495
:having these conversations early
really can help structure kids
496
:view of the world and help them.
497
:Even if we can't give them like the
full nuance of everything, we can still
498
:give them a pretty solid foundation
that we can continue to build on
499
:even from a very, very young age.
500
:So, and then just obviously as
they grow older, especially in the
501
:teenage years, like more nuance,
more sophistication becomes possible.
502
:Yeah.
503
:And with teenagers, I think of course,
every kid is different, but , by the time
504
:they're like, like middle school, high
school, it honestly is going to be best
505
:to be like more open and direct, right?
506
:Just using, the terminology, using.
507
:Just you don't have to go into, like,
graphic details, but you can, like, start
508
:to talk a little bit more and ask some
of those, , harder questions, like, , a
509
:lot of kids your age view pornography,
and I'm curious, like, why do you think
510
:that is, and what's the draw to that?
511
:And, Just kind of help them think
more deeply about it and love and
512
:I think just like letting them know
that you're here as like a support
513
:for them and really digging into the
why instead of not just like that.
514
:That's bad.
515
:Don't do it because then it's like I'm
kind of curious or if I have encountered
516
:that or if I am encountering that and
maybe I am doing pornography and I
517
:don't really like it and I have some
weird feelings about it, but I will
518
:never ask my parent for help because
You They've established themselves
519
:as someone who thinks it's like
gross and blah, blah, blah, blah.
520
:You know what I mean?
521
:So instead of like really keeping it
in open dialogue, letting them kind of
522
:setting by example, letting them know,
like you can talk about it and it is
523
:something like let their questions guide.
524
:And then you also kind of want to bring up
natural conversations whenever you can.
525
:And so you might pass a billboard
and that's a great opportunity
526
:to just say like, Hey, this is
an interesting thought idea.
527
:Like.
528
:Do you think it should be legal for
a billboard to be like that on a road
529
:where children are like, you know, if
like a teen, like that's an interesting
530
:debate you could even get into and like,
really like what your kid has to say
531
:about it or maybe you're like updating
your software on your computers, like,
532
:you know, there's Barker, there's a lot
of different programs that can help like
533
:filter that again, like, I wouldn't just
rely on that and say like, Oh, it's okay,
534
:we have a filter, like, we don't need
to talk about pornography, they're very
535
:helpful, it can be a good , Thing to have
and that's a great conversation starter.
536
:Like, you might notice that we have
a new filter on the computer and I
537
:just kind of want to talk about that
with you and you know, Why do you
538
:think we put that on the computer?
539
:And in what ways is it helpful?
540
:In what ways is it annoying to you?
541
:Like, you know, because sometimes yeah
And you can't like do your biology
542
:homework Yeah So like just finding
those like little everyday ways to
543
:have those tiny little conversations
conversations just like a principle at a
544
:time like if you needed help with this.
545
:What would you do, and some parents
may even be able to share an
546
:experience like I realized that
this was a real problem for me.
547
:And I think a lot of times
parents are afraid that if they
548
:disclose some of their, like,
you know, History or mistakes.
549
:It gives their kids permission.
550
:Like, Oh, well, my mom or my
dad, you know what I mean?
551
:And that's typically not the case.
552
:It's just a really good way
to like connect and it's
553
:probably the opposite, right?
554
:Probably.
555
:Yeah, exactly.
556
:If you share, it probably helps them be
more open and less likely to say mistakes.
557
:Yeah, so it, like yeah, that was kind
of a little bit scattered, but those
558
:are some, like, No, those are really
helpful examples of, specific ages,
559
:specific what to talk about, and I
really liked how you shared, like, okay,
560
:when do you have these conversations,
you know, when you see a billboard,
561
:when you're chatting, making dinner,
when you're doing things as a family.
562
:I think that was helpful hearing,
, specific times of when, and it
563
:reminded me of something I learned
when I was researching this topic.
564
:This was years ago, but.
565
:this idea of when you see like magazine
when you're checking out the grocery
566
:store and it's really suggestive or
something, it's really easy to want
567
:to you know, distract your kids so
they don't see it or shy away from it.
568
:But that can be a really good
opportunity to be like, how do
569
:you think that girl feels that
her body is displayed like that?
570
:Or like, what do you
think she likes to do?
571
:Like unobjectifying.
572
:whoever is being portrayed that way.
573
:Anyways, I think that was just another
example that came to my mind of how
574
:you can have these conversations.
575
:I love that.
576
:Yeah.
577
:I think that speaks to what
you said earlier about having
578
:a positive approach goal.
579
:Cause there's like a difference between
like approaching goals and like both
580
:have their own merits, but to just
avoid something kind of leaves us
581
:vulnerable , Something about, , what's
forbidden is, interesting and exciting.
582
:Yeah.
583
:And then it also, like, if all you
have is a don't, then there's not, it's
584
:not really clear, like, what to do.
585
:Yeah.
586
:Because so much attention has been brought
to the thing to avoid, that ends up
587
:being the thing to focus on, actually.
588
:Ironically.
589
:But , in addition to having all the
conversations about, like, pornography
590
:and what to do when you encounter it,
whatever, Having conversations like
591
:that, that help humanize other people or
help, our kids think about others that
592
:they have like their own life, their own,
like emotions, their own experiences,
593
:that these are real people is.
594
:A way to develop like mental
and social health, I think that
595
:can protect and buffer some of
the negative effects or like the
596
:temptation or interest for pornography.
597
:Yeah.
598
:Yeah.
599
:And it made me think as you were
talking, like, and I think you had
600
:said something about this earlier,
Marcy, how sometimes your kids might
601
:be involved in pornography, but
they don't really want to be, and
602
:they're wanting to get away from
it, but they don't know how.
603
:And so understanding it's more
than just what's on the surface.
604
:It's like, there's probably
something deeper going on for why
605
:they are turning to pornography.
606
:And I think that's like a lot, I think,
well, like your whole podcast and
607
:stuff, I think that like, honestly,
I think a lot of the reasons that
608
:you kind of focus with like young
moms and I think a lot of the
609
:same reasons that young young moms
might go to scrolling on Instagram.
610
:It's kind of a different
version of the same thing with
611
:like, yeah, pornography, right?
612
:Yes, I think that's like actually a
really important thing I think even just
613
:to have some empathy if maybe this is
something that your child is experiencing.
614
:That you, because I'm addicted to my
phone, I've tried, but like, I think
615
:it can like take a step back and be
like, Oh yeah, like, I don't like
616
:this habit I have with my, my phone.
617
:I don't like it.
618
:And yet I keep going back to it.
619
:Right.
620
:Yeah.
621
:I don't even like the way I feel
after I do like a mindless scroll,
622
:but I'll do it again tomorrow.
623
:Like right now.
624
:Again.
625
:And so I think that that can also.
626
:Like, yeah, so many of the reasons
they're, they're similar, right?
627
:That you talk about when you're like, it
can be as simple as boredom, but it can
628
:also be like depression and loneliness.
629
:And it's a distraction for sure,
especially if you're a young kid
630
:and you're just like, You have all
these like hormones and awkward and
631
:unlovable and, you know, overwhelmed
and then you just have something that
632
:just takes your brain somewhere so far
away from all those worries, right?
633
:And I think that sometimes, and this
is actually something we talked about
634
:on our episode about drugs, but I
think it's really similar of like,
635
:It's okay to like, like, I don't
want to say it's a benefit, right?
636
:But names, like the, benefits, right?
637
:Like why would someone talk about
it so that you can, like Alex
638
:mentioned, talk about, but what
could be like a better thing to do?
639
:That could fill that need that could be
healthier for you because yes, it would
640
:be effective in distracting you but then
it's going to lead to some different
641
:consequences for you as a kid, right?
642
:And well, and naming, the like the
positive outcomes because there are
643
:some like otherwise, if there wasn't
anything good or interesting about
644
:pornography, nobody would use it.
645
:The same with drugs.
646
:But helping kids, think through
those pros, relative pros, right?
647
:Is actually, I think one of the
things that helps reduce the shame,
648
:it makes it, it neutralizes it.
649
:Right.
650
:Cause it's like, okay, just like
with many other things, there
651
:are good things and bad things.
652
:Like we have maple
syrup here on the table.
653
:We just ate pancakes with our kids,
like maple syrup, fricking delicious.
654
:But if you just drink a bottle of maple
syrup, like our four year old tried to
655
:do tonight, you're going to get sick.
656
:Like it's not really good for you.
657
:And so like, yeah, like with us,
like we personally have the value,
658
:like I ideally for my kids to have.
659
:Healthy sexuality through
adulthood, like I think it would be
660
:healthier for them to like not have
pornography a part of their lives.
661
:And that's just kind of like our values
and we have friends who differ, right?
662
:But I think part of helping frame
that is, you know, yeah, like we
663
:can talk about like there is this
element of sex in pornography.
664
:And sex is a good thing, right?
665
:And that's part of that, having
it be part of this bigger
666
:conversation of healthy sexuality.
667
:And that, that can be a really important
and fulfilling part of your life.
668
:But teaching them like healthier ways.
669
:You know, like in our family, our
value would, that would be in like
670
:a loving committed relationship that
that can be a really like fulfilling
671
:in an important aspect of your life.
672
:But yeah, like, yeah, just naming
that there is this element, right?
673
:Like, and I think like, yeah, like
kind of like you were saying, like
674
:as a child, Or maybe as a teen,
however old you are, like, if your
675
:parents approach the conversation
with that perspective, wouldn't you
676
:feel so much safer and connected and
willing to open up and actually make
677
:progress than just hide those things?
678
:And Something else that just came to
my mind, sometimes I get so caught up
679
:in this idea, especially I, you know,
focus a lot on screens and I want my
680
:kids to have a healthy relationship
with screens and media in general.
681
:And so I get focused on like,
well, I don't want my kids to
682
:experience negative parts.
683
:I just want them to have the
positive experience that
684
:come from media and screens.
685
:But.
686
:I was talking with my mom about this and
she was kind of sharing some experiences
687
:that I had when I was younger and
like her perspective and how they were
688
:actually really hard and negative, but
because of those negative experiences I
689
:had of technology, I was able to learn
and grow and progress as a person and
690
:so I think it kind of can be the same
with pornography where sometimes I
691
:get so stuck on like, well, I want my
kids to have like, the best experience
692
:with pornography, but you know, maybe
they will be addicted pornography
693
:and they'll learn and grow and.
694
:Because of that.
695
:I don't know.
696
:You know what I mean?
697
:Like, and as we chat with our
kids about it and we have those
698
:ongoing open conversations, it will
be a growing experience instead
699
:of a destructive experience.
700
:I love that.
701
:Do you both have any kind of final
thoughts on this topic of how do you
702
:talk with your kids about pornography?
703
:I know that's like, we could
talk about this all night.
704
:We could do several episodes
on this, but any kind of last
705
:thoughts that you want to share?
706
:I think I would just, I, yeah, I just
would say like one, if you're listening
707
:to this and you're like, Oh my gosh, I've
already made so many mistakes or whatever,
708
:like, Oh, like I haven't taught my toddler
the body parts, or I've totally kind of
709
:shamed and, you know, like talked really
in a shameful way about pornography.
710
:And I don't think my kid would ever
talk to me about whatever it is.
711
:Like kids are so forgiving.
712
:And I think, you know, if you feel like,
oh, man, I kind of have messed this
713
:up, I think that's a great conversation
starter to have, especially if it's
714
:like an older kid, you can say, hey,
you know what, I've been thinking about
715
:something and I don't love the way
I've been talking about pornography.
716
:And can I have a do over?
717
:Can we like try again?
718
:Right.
719
:And I think.
720
:What a great model for your kids, right?
721
:That you can , you don't ever have
to get anything right the first
722
:time that you can like ask for a do
over that you can try and do better.
723
:So I think just like this is
a really tough conversation.
724
:I love how you were like, you guys
are so confident talking about this.
725
:I'm like, I don't feel it.
726
:Right.
727
:And like, when things come up, like,
yeah, I mean, our kids are young
728
:and I still like panic in certain
conversations or want to shield them
729
:from the magazine at the store, right?
730
:Like, yeah, hard in the moment.
731
:And so I think I would just say, like,
just give yourself a lot of grace
732
:and like, you can always, you can
always have a do over and that's fine.
733
:That's great life advice.
734
:I love that.
735
:Do you have any last thoughts?
736
:Alex?
737
:No, I second that.
738
:I think just that principle like repairing
is what helps form the foundation of
739
:like a good strong connection because
we're No matter what, we're, we're human.
740
:We're always going to
fall short in something.
741
:But it's, and our kids don't
expect us to be perfect either.
742
:But it's in the process of repairing
that we really like forge the
743
:bonds that will allow us to like
have these chats into perpetuity.
744
:That's powerful.
745
:As we close, will you just end by
reminding my listeners of your three part
746
:chat with your kids model and then you
can tell them where they can find you?
747
:Yeah, for sure.
748
:So the chat with your kids model.
749
:Sure.
750
:Connect, listen, and chat.
751
:And you can find us our podcast is
just chat with your kids and it's
752
:wherever you listen to podcasts.
753
:And we're also on Instagram.
754
:It's.
755
:At chat with your kids and our email
is just chat with your kids at gmail.
756
:com and there's nothing we love more
than when parents reach out to us
757
:with like questions or comments.
758
:So please, yeah, if you have
any like questions we'd love.
759
:For you to listen to the show and we'd
love for you to follow up if you have
760
:any questions or comments or feedback.
761
:Thank you so much.
762
:This was so enlightening for me
and I feel, I honestly feel more
763
:confident tomorrow how I'm going to
talk with my kids about pornography
764
:with just that next, next little
step with where my kids are at.
765
:So thank you.
766
:I really appreciate your time.
767
:Well, thank you as well.
768
:This has been so fun
